Question about unusual P-83 from USA

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CatKing
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Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#1 Post autor: CatKing » 5 sierpnia 2020, 14:05

I'm an American (who doesn't speak any Polish at all) and I've collecting Polish handguns for about a year now. I haven't been able to find an answer for this question yet and was directed to this forum, so that's why I'm asking here. I don't know if it would help any, but I'm including a google translated copy of this all here.

While most of the P-83 pistols in the USA are surplus guns, there are a small amount here that were manufactured specifically for commercial sale. The vast majority of these commercial P-83s have the eagle marking on the slide, but I've noticed that there were a very small number with completely unique markings. Unlike any other P-83 I've seen, these do not have a date of manufacture on them, no letter prefix to the serial number, and no circle 11 marking. They also came in the box for a P-83G even though the P-83G was never sold in the USA. I have only found three pistols like this, serial numbers being 002005, 002010, and 002011. It seems that it was only a very small amount of this type imported here, maybe just a dozen. I was lucky enough to get one of them, but I wish I knew a little more about its history.

ObrazekObrazek

Would anyone here know anything about the history of these specific P-83s? I know nothing about them except for what I see written on the gun. I'm guessing that at some point, ZM Łucznik was working on getting a branch opened up in the USA to help sell more stuff here. The name of the importer, "Archer Arms," sounds like it could be them. Along with that, they were also able to get their own unique markings and serial number range for the guns. The issue with this theory is not only that I've never heard of ZM Łucznik doing that, but there was already an importer at that time, Dalvar USA. While I do not think that Dalvar was the official importer for ZM Łucznik's guns, he still had a close enough relation with them that his import marks were added at the factory in Radom instead of during the importation process.

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If anyone here knows anything at all about this P-83, I'd be very happy to hear what you have to say.

Also while I'm here, is there any sort of pattern to the letter prefixes that Radom was using for its serial numbers? The order they're used in seems to be very random and I have a "SZKOLNY" marked P-64 from 1969 with a "S" prefix, but my eagle P-83 from 1994 also has a "S" prefix.


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Jestem Amerykaninem (który w ogóle nie mówi po polsku) i od około roku kolekcjonuję polskie pistolety. Nie udało mi się jeszcze znaleźć odpowiedzi na to pytanie i zostałem skierowany na to forum, dlatego tutaj pytam. Nie wiem, czy to by pomogło, ale dołączam tutaj kopię tego wszystkiego przetłumaczoną przez Google.

Podczas gdy większość pistoletów P-83 w USA to nadwyżki broni, jest ich niewielka ilość, która została wyprodukowana specjalnie do sprzedaży komercyjnej. Zdecydowana większość tych komercyjnych P-83 ma na zamku znak orła, ale zauważyłem, że było ich bardzo mało z całkowicie unikalnymi oznaczeniami. W przeciwieństwie do innych P-83, które widziałem, nie mają one daty produkcji, przedrostka literowego do numeru seryjnego ani oznaczenia koła 11. Przybyli także w pudełku z P-83G, mimo że P-83G nigdy nie był sprzedawany w USA. Znalazłem tylko trzy takie pistolety o numerach seryjnych 002005, 002010 i 002011. Wygląda na to, że sprowadzono tu bardzo małą ilość tego typu, może tylko kilkanaście. Miałem szczęście, że udało mi się zdobyć jeden z nich, ale chciałbym dowiedzieć się czegoś więcej o jego historii.

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Czy ktoś tutaj wiedziałby coś o historii tych konkretnych P-83? Nie wiem o nich nic oprócz tego, co widzę na broni. Domyślam się, że w pewnym momencie ZM Łucznik pracował nad otwarciem filii w USA, aby sprzedawać tu więcej rzeczy. Nazwa importera, „Archer Arms”, brzmi tak, jakby to mogli być oni. Oprócz tego byli w stanie uzyskać własne unikalne oznaczenia i zakres numerów seryjnych broni. Problem z tą teorią polega nie tylko na tym, że nigdy nie słyszałem o tym, by ZM Łucznik to robił, ale istniał już wówczas importer Dalvar USA. O ile nie sądzę, aby Dalvar był oficjalnym importerem broni ZM Łucznik, to jednak miał z nimi na tyle bliskie relacje, że jego znaki importowe zostały dodane w fabryce w Radomiu, a nie podczas importu.

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Jeśli ktoś tutaj wie cokolwiek o tym P-83, z przyjemnością usłyszę, co masz do powiedzenia.

Również kiedy tu jestem, czy istnieje jakiś wzór przedrostków liter, których Radom używał do swoich numerów seryjnych? Kolejność ich użycia wydaje się być bardzo przypadkowa i mam „SZKOLNY” oznaczony P-64 z 1969 roku z przedrostkiem „S”, ale mój orzeł P-83 z 1994 roku również ma przedrostek „S”.

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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#2 Post autor: Okruch » 6 sierpnia 2020, 14:52

Hello, nice to meet You!
There is a very cool post, I`ve never heard of such markings... but will try to ask "here and there".
Welcome aboard, and hope You will have some nice time with us... although we`re bunch of boring naggers ;)
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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#3 Post autor: mkl1 » 6 sierpnia 2020, 19:13

Hi
I heard only that some time ago Polish "Lucznik" would like to "egsist" in American market.
They decided prepare a special edition marked as a "ARCHER ARMS."
the same was after with Polish BERYL- called ARCHER AK"

see:
http://fabrykabroni.pl/en/o-firmie/o-nas/


Fabryka Broni „Łucznik”-Radom Sp. z o.o. (‘Archer’-Radom Arms Factory LLC) was incorporated o­n July 14, 2000, 75 years after the first, pre-WW2 Fabryka Broni has been established in Radom. It is a small arms maker and supplier for the Polish Armed Forces and the Ministry of Internal Affairs and Administration, as well as for export and civilian markets.

Main product scope of the Fabryka Broni are military firearms: 5.56 mm x 45 NATO Beryl assault rifles and Mini-Beryl automatic carbines, 9 mm x 19 Luger PM-98/PM-06 Glauberyt submachine guns, P99 and PR-15 Ragun semiautomatic pistols, as well as various sporting, hunting and training arms. Custom gunsmithing is another field of activity, where Fabryka Broni excels, offering long years of experience of their skilled workforce and extensive, modern equipment to willing business partners.

The FB also maintains active co-operation with technical schools and R&D institutions, as well as with the end-users of their products, and through this lively feedback brings about the exchange of views, enabling further development, constant modernization and optimizing of the products.

It is an ambition of the Fabryka Broni “Łucznik” – Radom sp. z o.o. that the FB triangular logo would become synonymous with user-safe and user-friendly, reliable, high-quality and modern products.
Nitro i CP od 223rem , aż do .58 :) i jakiś "wiaterek" lat 1970-tych się też znajdzie :)

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CatKing
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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#4 Post autor: CatKing » 7 sierpnia 2020, 15:26

Okruch pisze:
6 sierpnia 2020, 14:52
Hello, nice to meet You!
There is a very cool post, I`ve never heard of such markings... but will try to ask "here and there".
Welcome aboard, and hope You will have some nice time with us... although we`re bunch of boring naggers ;)
Thanks, I appreciate you helping ask around as well. I do not know if I will have much to contribute and me not knowing Polish will make things tough, but I'll look around the forum some.

While I am more passionate towards Polish guns than I am towards most other guns, most of my personal collection is just various guns (especially pistols from Europe) that I find interesting in some way. The Benelli B76 and its variants are probably the only guns that I am more passionate towards than Polish ones, though there's many other guns that I am interested in too of course. I have four Polish guns right now, but it will be five once that "SZKOLNY" P-64 arrives at my local gun store.
While I don't think that I will ever be able to find something like a P-83c or P-93 here, I'm pretty happy with my collection so far. I definitely will need a vis 35, but I know that some Gward revolvers were sold in the US about 15 years ago for only $140, so maybe I'll be lucky enough to find one of those as well.

Obrazek

mkl1 pisze:
6 sierpnia 2020, 19:13
Hi
I heard only that some time ago Polish "Lucznik" would like to "egsist" in American market.
They decided prepare a special edition marked as a "ARCHER ARMS."
the same was after with Polish BERYL- called ARCHER AK"

see:
http://fabrykabroni.pl/en/o-firmie/o-nas/


---
Based off of that and what I already knew, it sounds like what happened to FB Radom USA is probably similar to what happened with ZM Lucznik in America. In 2014, FB Radom registered itself as a company in America and they were planning to focus much more on the American market then, but it doesn't seem like anything happened with it. While I do not know the reason why FB Radom never actually opened in the US, I think a big reason why is related to the people who were importing the Archer rifles being stupid. With ZM Lucznik, it probably ended because of them going bankrupt.
I think about 1,000 of the "Archer' Beryls were imported. The early ones didn't look much like a Beryl since they didn't use the correct barrel length and they had no ambidextrous fire selector, though the final few Archers imported were almost identical to the military Beryls. I do not know the details of it, but I believe that the importer did something stupid with importing the Archer rifles that technically broke some import law, so no more were able to come in once that happened.


What excites me is it looks like FB Radom is trying again to exist some in the American market. Lately, they started to import things like AKM barrels and Beryl parts, but they're planning on importing mini Beryls too sometime soon (sadly without stocks because of some dumb law here). The importer that FB Radom is using now is a much more respected company than the previous one, so I'm hopeful that things will work better this time. I would love to eventually have the opportunity to get something like a vis100 M1.


Also, if some collector in Poland would be interested, one of these odd P-83s will be up for auction soon. I expect that it would be difficult and expensive to import a gun from the US into Poland, but I think that the type of collector who would be interested in such a P-83 would also probably be the kind of person who would be able to figure out how to buy and import it.
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detai ... h-holsters

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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#5 Post autor: asasello » 7 sierpnia 2020, 19:37

Jako że twój Google jest lepszy niż mój (wręcz niewiarygodny) to z pewnością poradzi sobie z moją pisaniną.
Dobrze by było zapytać miłośników broni z Polski mieszkających w USA.Było tu kilkoro na forum ale już wymarli więc nie mam ci kogo polecić.
A teraz do rzeczy.Jeśli wierzyć autorom tej książki https://www.google.com/search?client=op ... 8&oe=UTF-8
to jest mniej więcej tak jak piszesz.Po tzw. upadku komuny skończyły się duże zamówienia na broń dla firmy z Radomia.Oni nie byli na to gotowi i szybko popadli w tarapaty finansowe.W akcie rozpaczy próbowali wejść na rynek cywilny.Początkowo w Polsce liczyli że będzie możliwe stworzenie rynku cywilnego dla broni.Niestety Polska była i jest państwem mafijnym i to na najwyższych szczeblach a mafiozi nie utrudniają sobie życia więc dostęp do broni i obrona konieczna jest bardzo utrudniana.Chwilowo w miarę dostępna była bron gazowa więc stworzono kilka modeli pistoletów gazowych w tym WANADa od którego masz pudełko.Nie chciano tych pudełek wyrzucać więc wydrukowano do nich nalepki do normalnego pistoletu czyli bez litery G.Jeśli nie masz nalepki to ciekawa sprawa. Kiedy było wiadomo że w kraju nic się nie sprzeda były też próby eksportu na rynek cywilny już prawdziwej broni na pewno w Szwajcarii gdzie cena była zaporowa.No i w USA. Teksańska firma Dalvar zdecydowanie nie była próbą budowy fili bo fabryka w Radomiu szybko zbankrutowała.Co do Archer Arms z IL trudno mi coś powiedzieć.
Jedenastka w w owalu była oznaczeniem dla wojska dla zmylenia imperialistycznych szpiegów 8) Radom na rynek cywilny robił trochę rzeczy już przed wojną i po wojnie też (rowery maszyny do szycia broń sportową) a jego logiem był ów zbójnik łucznik.Ten znak masz właśnie na pistolecie.Były też prototypy w innych kalibrach bardziej dostępnych na zachodzie w tym nawet 9 mm ULTRA ale nie zdążono ich wprowadzić do produkcji.
Później sporo broni trafiło z od syndyka i z zapasów wojskowych ale to już inna historia.
Co do numerów to ciężka sprawa.Wszystko co do tyczyło wojska i przemysłu zbrojeniowego było utajniane aż do absurdu.Trudno mi powiedzieć co się stało z dokumentacją fabryki po jej bankructwie.Dokumentacje techniczną (przynajmniej w części) ma Works 11.Ale ta dotyczącą produkcji to diabli wiedzą.
https://wspieramrozwoj.pl
Si vis pacem -przebuduj piramidę na ziggurat.

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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#6 Post autor: waliza » 7 sierpnia 2020, 22:10

Ten gazowy to nie był WANAD. WANAD to byla wersja na rynek cywilny i główna różnica to inne nacięcia na tyle zamka- szersze. P83G na 9mmPA bazował na wersji policyjnej/wojskowej.
nie chcę mieć racji, szukam prawdy/ Baikal 27/ Weatherby PA08/ Hatsan Escort Magnum.

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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#7 Post autor: CatKing » 8 sierpnia 2020, 11:47

asasello pisze:
7 sierpnia 2020, 19:37
Jako że twój Google jest lepszy niż mój (wręcz niewiarygodny) to z pewnością poradzi sobie z moją pisaniną.
Dobrze by było zapytać miłośników broni z Polski mieszkających w USA.Było tu kilkoro na forum ale już wymarli więc nie mam ci kogo polecić.
A teraz do rzeczy.Jeśli wierzyć autorom tej książki https://www.google.com/search?client=op ... 8&oe=UTF-8
to jest mniej więcej tak jak piszesz.Po tzw. upadku komuny skończyły się duże zamówienia na broń dla firmy z Radomia.Oni nie byli na to gotowi i szybko popadli w tarapaty finansowe.W akcie rozpaczy próbowali wejść na rynek cywilny.Początkowo w Polsce liczyli że będzie możliwe stworzenie rynku cywilnego dla broni.Niestety Polska była i jest państwem mafijnym i to na najwyższych szczeblach a mafiozi nie utrudniają sobie życia więc dostęp do broni i obrona konieczna jest bardzo utrudniana.Chwilowo w miarę dostępna była bron gazowa więc stworzono kilka modeli pistoletów gazowych w tym WANADa od którego masz pudełko.Nie chciano tych pudełek wyrzucać więc wydrukowano do nich nalepki do normalnego pistoletu czyli bez litery G.Jeśli nie masz nalepki to ciekawa sprawa. Kiedy było wiadomo że w kraju nic się nie sprzeda były też próby eksportu na rynek cywilny już prawdziwej broni na pewno w Szwajcarii gdzie cena była zaporowa.No i w USA. Teksańska firma Dalvar zdecydowanie nie była próbą budowy fili bo fabryka w Radomiu szybko zbankrutowała.Co do Archer Arms z IL trudno mi coś powiedzieć.
Jedenastka w w owalu była oznaczeniem dla wojska dla zmylenia imperialistycznych szpiegów 8) Radom na rynek cywilny robił trochę rzeczy już przed wojną i po wojnie też (rowery maszyny do szycia broń sportową) a jego logiem był ów zbójnik łucznik.Ten znak masz właśnie na pistolecie.Były też prototypy w innych kalibrach bardziej dostępnych na zachodzie w tym nawet 9 mm ULTRA ale nie zdążono ich wprowadzić do produkcji.
Później sporo broni trafiło z od syndyka i z zapasów wojskowych ale to już inna historia.
Co do numerów to ciężka sprawa.Wszystko co do tyczyło wojska i przemysłu zbrojeniowego było utajniane aż do absurdu.Trudno mi powiedzieć co się stało z dokumentacją fabryki po jej bankructwie.Dokumentacje techniczną (przynajmniej w części) ma Works 11.Ale ta dotyczącą produkcji to diabli wiedzą.
There are not many sources in English that talk in much detail about what happened with the Radom factory after the fall of communism in Poland, so it's nice to have a quick summary of it like that. That is interesting too about why they still marked the civilian P-83s with the "circle 11". I knew that gun regulations in Poland are very strict, but it is always fun to hear about all the tricks that people use to work around them some. I also knew that a small number of P-83s in .380acp were made, but never was aware until now that they were considering 9mm Ultra too.

The box that my Archer Arms P-83 came in.
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My cell phone camera is too crappy to get a good photo of all of the pages at once, but another interesting thing that I have been able to find was an advertising brochure from ZM Lucznik in English, probably meant for some gun trade show like SHOT Show. One part of them that I find funny is that half of the guns from this brochure were never sold in America at all. I don't know how common they are in Europe, but I do not think that there has ever been a single Radom Hunter in America. According to Dalvar, 60 of the MAG 95 were imported to here, so they are extremely rare.
I don't want to spam the thread with too many images.
Obrazek
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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#8 Post autor: krzychu22lr » 8 sierpnia 2020, 19:47

TL; DR: at this moment no one can give you 100% sure answer, but naming connection between "Archer Arms Illinois" and "Archer Metal Works Radom Poland" (ZM Łucznik) is probably incidental.

Long answer: let's start from the end.
CatKing pisze:
5 sierpnia 2020, 14:05
Also while I'm here, is there any sort of pattern to the letter prefixes that Radom was using for its serial numbers? The order they're used in seems to be very random and I have a "SZKOLNY" marked P-64 from 1969 with a "S" prefix, but my eagle P-83 from 1994 also has a "S" prefix.
Yes, there was pattern/numbering convention, but it was different for every product, and even within one type of weapon, it may have been different depending on the customer. For example, AKs manufactured for Polish military had serial numbers composed of two letters and then five digits, where letters were coded for the year of manufacture. But AKs intended for export often had different serial numbers - for example one letter and three digits, or one letter and five digits.

In case of P-83, you can see all sorts of different numbering conventions. Military guns are often marked with two letters and five digits, but it seems like date code is different than what was used on AKs (for example P-83s with BTxxxxx serial numbers - BT was date code for 1969 AKMs). Most of the commercial guns (either sold on US or, virtually non-existent, Polish market) also have this format of serial numbers. However, there were exceptions - Dalvar eagle series like yours, or specialized variants (P-83c, P-83G, etc.).

Unfortunately, there's no data regarding serial numbers convention - all we know comes from analizing existing guns. After "ZM Łucznik" ceased to exist, their documents were divided between State Archive in Radom, and (confidential files) Central Military Archive in Warsaw (with exception to technical data packages for weapons, as those were either transferred to "FB Łucznik", or sold to whomever was willing to buy - eg. "Works 11"). From my understanding all the files regarding contracts/sales and production numbers are in confidential resource, since State Archive in Radom have no such documents.

Which brings us to other question:
CatKing pisze:
5 sierpnia 2020, 14:05
I'm guessing that at some point, ZM Łucznik was working on getting a branch opened up in the USA to help sell more stuff here. The name of the importer, "Archer Arms," sounds like it could be them. Along with that, they were also able to get their own unique markings and serial number range for the guns. The issue with this theory is not only that I've never heard of ZM Łucznik doing that, but there was already an importer at that time, Dalvar USA. While I do not think that Dalvar was the official importer for ZM Łucznik's guns, he still had a close enough relation with them that his import marks were added at the factory in Radom instead of during the importation process.
Special markings are not really that special - people seem to forget, but during 1990s ZM Łucznik was one of few places where you could engrave your gun, and I know of few old "fudds" who did just that. So if factory was ready to work on someone's single hunting rifle, it should be no surprise that wholesaler/importer would get it too on Łucznik's own product. And while Dalvar was probably closest thing to official distributor of ZM Łucznik in US, it wasn't the only one. Few examples of full-auto guns were imported as dealer samples by at least one company. It wouldn't be surprising to learn that there was another US distributor of ZM Łucznik.

However I find it unlikely for ZM Łucznik to try and set up a sort of factory shop in the US, simply because the factory was broke as f..k. And, as we say here, to nie są tanie rzeczy - these things ain't cheap. While it may seem that in the 1990s ZM Łucznik was expanding by entering civilian market (either in Europe or US), it was really grasping at straws. Military contracts were dwindling, exports to various Middle-Eastern and African countries also ended (some thanks to... German and US intelligence agencies). In 1990 Radom R&D Centre (OBR Radom which was a separate entity) was closed, and while some of it's assets were given to ZM Łucznik, factory lacked a lot of developing capabilities. So not only it would be virtually impossible for them to set up subsidiary in US (just like FB Łucznik Radom of USA failed in 2017), it wouldn't also stay under the radar for so long. Afterall, financial troubles of ZM Łucznik were a topic of few parliamentary debates in Poland, and creation of FB Łucznik was enacted by parliament too.

My wild-assed guess is that some Illinois entrepreneur decided to take a cut from Dalvar's pie, and since he liked "Archer" name, he used it for his operation. All while ZM Łucznik didn't mind - even though "Archer" was used by ZM Łucznik civilian products since at least 1920s (bikes, sewing machines, airguns - 1970s air gun exports to UK had "Archer" logo), at the time it wasn't registered/trademarked. Also notice that "Archer Arms" P-83 has name "Arrow", while factory ads say it is "Vanad" - transliteration of "Wanad" (vanadium) which was military code-name for P-83 development program. It is possible that "Archer Arms" owner's last name was "Archer", and that's why he stick to this theme - it's a crap shot, but when I googled "Archer Arms, Elk Grove, IL", I found an obituary of Mr Robert D. Archer, Elk Grove resident, who died in March at age of 87.

Unless Okruch's connection will dig something new up, the only sure information is still confidential (if those files even have civilian sales data). Your best bet would be trying to check if someone, anywhere in US have any information about "Archer Arms" itself - I suppose it must have been FFL, so ATF should have some info? But on the other hand it is no coincidence that writing a letter to ATF became a meme, and if you have dogs, they would like to live a little longer! Nice collection BTW!
mkl1 pisze:
6 sierpnia 2020, 19:13
Hi
I heard only that some time ago Polish "Lucznik" would like to "egsist" in American market.
They decided prepare a special edition marked as a "ARCHER ARMS."
Pierwsze słyszę - jakieś źródła?

Z broni pod nazwą "Archer" eksportowano tylko Beryle (w latach 2012-2014, do USA, ale też Rosji i Włoch), a wcześniej wiatrówki w latach 70. Natomiast o "Archer Arms" nic nie wiem, i nie słyszałem, do czasu postu kolegi CatKinga. W latach 90. ZM Łucznik używał w anglojęzycznych materiałach reklamowych nazwy "Archer Metal Works" (Dalvar chwalił się głównie "11" i "Radom"), a obecna FB Łucznik Radom częściej używa po prostu "FB Radom", pomijając wszelkie łucznicze konotacje.
CatKing pisze:
7 sierpnia 2020, 15:26
While I do not know the reason why FB Radom never actually opened in the US, I think a big reason why is related to the people who were importing the Archer rifles being stupid.
If anyone was stupid, it was ATF. FB Łucznik Radom sent samples to ATF even before establishing "FB Radom of USA, Texas". Two 5.56 guns were virtually identical to 2012 Archers, and two guns were .22 cal Beryls M22. ATF rejected 5.56 guns, and Łucznik was left with .22s only (which have very limited interest in US, judging from comments on the Internet).
CatKing pisze:
7 sierpnia 2020, 15:26
I think about 1,000 of the "Archer' Beryls were imported.
750 to be precise. And initial contract with IO Inc. said that they'll import 1000 of full-size Archers, and 500 Mini-Archers in pistol form. Apparently IO bailed in the middle, thus Łucznik decided to work with Ted Marshall (the "FB Radom of USA, Texas").
CatKing pisze:
7 sierpnia 2020, 15:26
I believe that the importer did something stupid with importing the Archer rifles that technically broke some import law, so no more were able to come in once that happened.
Nope, since IO (while a shitty company) was doing everything to be within the law (thus the idiotic muzzle device on first series of Archers), and "FB Radom of USA" never imported a thing.

You may be thinking of Ted Marshall himself, who via his own Marshall Arms imported a real-deal (full-auto, SBR) Onyks (he has few of the 1990s ZM Łucznik dealer samples too), which lead to ATF banning 7N6, due to commercial availability of a pistol Fabryka Bronie Radom, Model Onyks 89S. Needless to say - last Onyks was manufactured 5 years before Fabryka Broni "Łucznik" Radom was established, and FB doesn't have any 5.45 gun in portfolio (only prototype Beryl M545, which was trialed in Vietnam). So while Ted may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, his 7N6 mess has nothing to "Radom of USA" imports (which were planned to be 5.56 and .22LR guns).

BTW: the American offensive was plan of previous FB Łucznik director, and they were willing to sacrifice a lot for that. Current director is apparently a little less hot-headed, and focuses a bit more on local civilian market. But this slower approach seems to be working better - first they were just exporting parts, and now apparently ATF accepted 5.56 Mini-Beryl pistol too.
asasello pisze:
7 sierpnia 2020, 19:37
Trudno mi powiedzieć co się stało z dokumentacją fabryki po jej bankructwie.Dokumentacje techniczną (przynajmniej w części) ma Works 11.Ale ta dotyczącą produkcji to diabli wiedzą.
Napisałem po angielsku dla kolegi-imperialisty, ale napiszę też po polsku, żebyś nie walczył z translatorem: archiwa "Łucznika" są w Archiwum Państwowym w Radomiu, i w Centralnym Archiwum Wojskowym (zasób tajny - przynajmniej rok temu). Miałem się w tym roku do Radomia wybrać, ale koronawirus... W każdym razie, z opisu akt wynika, że nie ma tam informacji dt. produkcji - czyli są w CAW (jeśli w ogóle).

Co do dokumentacji technicznej, ta trafiła w różne ręce, ale jestem niemal prawie pewien, że ta dotycząca P-83 została w FB Łucznik (FB nadal remontuje Wanady dla wojska). Works11 miał jedną z trzech wersji dokumentacji do MAG-a, i jedną z cholera-wie-ilu wersji dokumentacji do AK(M). Inna wersja dokumentacji techniczej do AKM dostała się w ręce Pioneer Arms, który to PAC sprzedał ją potem do IO Inc (amerykańskiego dystrybutora PAC, a w latach 2012-2014 także dystrybutora FB Łucznik). IO Inc sam produkował AKM-y na Florydzie, rzekomo zgodne z tą dokumentacją, które dosłownie rozpadały się w oczach (tak jak te PAC). Potem okazało się, że części przenoszące obciążenia (obsady luf, zamki, suwadła) są w tej broni wykonywane w zupełnie innym reżimie technologicznym niż w AKM od Łucznika (czy IżMaszu).
waliza pisze:
7 sierpnia 2020, 22:10
WANAD to byla wersja na rynek cywilny
Jeśli chcemy być tacy pedantyczni, to "Wanad" to był kryptonim programu badawczo-rozwojowego nowego pistoletu nadany przez MON, "P-83" to oznaczenie zakładowe OBR Radom i ZM Łucznik, a ostateczne oznaczenie wojskowe to "9mm pistolet wojskowy wzór 1983". W latach 90. Łucznik używał w materiałach reklamowych nazwy "P-83 Wanad", ale słowo "Wanad" jest jak najbardziej prawidłowe w stosunku do wersji wojskowej - wszak z samego wojska ono pochodzi.

Co do wersji z szerszymi nacięciami - należała do rzadkości, większość komercyjnych Wanadów (czy to na rynek polski, czy amerykański) miała standardowe nacięcia (jak choćby dwa cywilne P-83 kolegi CatKinga).

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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#9 Post autor: asasello » 8 sierpnia 2020, 22:32

Nie wiem czy chwalić go za gorliwość (żeby nie rzec redundancje) i pedantyczność (zbędną) czy ganić za recydywę Rmovovą.Nie ważne.
Zaintrygowało mnie stwierdzenie o przyczynie zaniechania eksportu Beryla w kalibrze 22lr. Czy jakieś źródła o tym mówią?
Byłem przekonany że ten kaliber ma tam ogromne wzięcie gdyż tambylcy nie mają już kompleksów właściwych naszym "sicarios" którzy muszą mieć "męską broń".
https://wspieramrozwoj.pl
Si vis pacem -przebuduj piramidę na ziggurat.

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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#10 Post autor: krzychu22lr » 9 sierpnia 2020, 00:12

Takie były komentarze na TFB i forach (AK Forum i AK Files). Przykład pierwszy z brzegu na TFB (AK Files "zdechło" jakiś czas temu, a AK Forum ma nowy layout i nie mogę nic znaleźć :oops: ).

Wzięcie tam mają .22-ki spod znaku Rugera 10/22. Nawet popularne u nas CZ-y są dosyć rzadkie, a europejskie karabinki sportowe typu Anschutzów to już zupełna egzotyka. Z taktycznych boczniaków przebił się tam S&W M&P15-22, głównie dlatego, że może korzystać (po przeróbkach) z akcesoriów do dorosłych AR-ów.

Beryl M22 ma więc podwójnie przerąbane, bo nie dość, że rynek .22-ek jest okopany, to w dodatku jest kałaszem. A typowy amerykański kupiec kałasza oczekuje taniej maszyny do utylizacji taniej amunicji 7.62x39mm. W latach 2012-2014 (kiedy eksportowano Beryla/Archera) problemem była właśnie 1. cena* i 2. amunicja 5.56. Owszem, kolekcjonerzy, lub koneserzy myśli technicznej Michaiła Timofiejewicza, wykupili ostatecznie wszystkie egzemplarze (tak jak sprzedawały się bułgarskie Arsenale, również cenowo w segmencie premium), ale większość rynku AK w USA to rumuńskie WASR-y, albo Zastavy. Które wtedy eksportowano w dużych ilościach i tanio, ale dzisiaj (po blisko-wschodnich ruchawkach) jest ich mniej, a cena też rośnie (choćby z tego powodu, że kończą się zasoby broni z demobilu, która często służyła za źródło części "nowej" broni również w Rumunii i Serbii - podobnie amunicja). Piszę z pamięci, ale w 2012 Beryla sprzedawano za bodaj 1200 USD, a WASR-y chodziły po 400. Dziś ten sam WASR sprzedaje się za nawet 900 dolarów. Żeby nie być gołosłownym - link do Atlantic Firearms, jednego z ogólnoamerykańskich sklepów specjalizujących się w AK.

* Nawiasem warto wspomnieć, że u nas jest na odwrót - tj. Beryl kosztuje mniej niż budżetowe AR-y markowych amerykańskich producentów (Colty Expanse, które z Coltem miały wspólny tylko znaczek, sprzedawano za ponad 5000 PLN). Sytuacja się zmieniła po wejściu na rynek Fedarma i Diamondbacka, ale to są takie imperialistyczne odpowiedniki PAC, WBP czy Prexera. :P

A, zapomniałbym - sam pomysł AK w .22LR jest uznawany wśród jankesów za nieco poroniony, bo wszystkie dostępne tam wcześniej konstrukcje tego typu były porażkami. Znalowo-plastikowe zabawki typu Armi Jaeger, czy (współczesny) GSG AK-47 były albo nietrwałe, albo często się zacinały, albo i to i to. Rumuński karabinek (AKT-98/WASR-22) był już lepszy materiałowo (tak jak Beryl - konwersja dorosłego AK), ale korzystał z problematycznych magazynków produkcji amerykańskiej (oryginałów importowano niewiele, ze względu na przepisy). W zasadzie cały rynek taktycznych .22-ek rozwinął się dopiero po MP15-22 - wcześniej uznawano taką broń za niemal zabawki dla dzieci.

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CatKing
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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#11 Post autor: CatKing » 9 sierpnia 2020, 12:44

krzychu22lr pisze:
8 sierpnia 2020, 19:47
---deleted to save space---
Thank you for the detailed reply! A lot of delicious knowledge that I did not have before.

While I have not paid too much attention to how their serial numbers work, that makes sense to me. Sounds like what exactly the letter prefixes on the P-83 mean shall remain a mystery, but they've at least stamped the year on the slide. I can't imagine that there would be much more that I would learn from them.

Your idea that the name "Archer Arms" is just coincidence was what I had originally thought, and now that I'm getting a better understanding of how bad off ZM Lucznik was, is what I'm beginning to believe again. I hadn't really seen any other guns from ZM Lucnzik with special markings (other than the eagle P-83s), so that mixed with the importer being named Archer too made me wonder.
Without knowing who Archer Arms is, I can say with 100% certainty that they were an FFL. Only an FFL can import guns and whatever guns that they do import will need their business's name and location engraved on the gun. I could only find records on the ATF's site back to 2014, so I might have to send them a letter to see if they would have any info. I'm not sure if their paper records would go back far enough, but I suppose it's worth a shot. Thankfully, I've got no dogs to worry about :lol:

Regarding FB Radom USA, I wouldn't think that it would be a factory, more just some office that would exist to help streamline the importation and distribution of their stuff to America. With the history of FB Radom USA, I was not able to find much on my own in the past, so it's nice to see all that laid out here. All that I knew for sure was that Archers were coming in through IO, then imports ceased prematurely.

I'm a lot more hopeful with FB Radom's lastest push to tap into the American market. Instead of going through IO this time, they're running through Atlantic Firearms and I think probably Arms of America too. Like you said, the Mini Beryl already being approved by the ATF for import is nice as well. Along with all of that, the American AK market of today will be much easier for them to compete in than it was in 2012.

A while back, I managed to get a hold of Tad from Dalvar USA and asked him about how many MAG 95s were imported. Of the 60 total imported, he said 50 were through him and that the other 10 were brought in through "another company". Of course, I never bothered then to ask who that other company was when I had the chance, but I wonder if that was Archer Arms. While I don't want to bother the guy too much, I might see if I can get a hold of him again.
Going off of a court document from the 7N6 case with the ATF, it looks Dalvar USA imported one Onyks while Marshall imported three others. What makes this case even more stupid is that by the time they banned importation of 7N6 because it was "armor piercing handgun ammo", the ATF had already reclassified the Onyks as an SBR! It's ridiculous that the ATF was able to get away with this.
https://news.guns.com/wp-content/upload ... vs-ATF.pdf


I'm pretty happy with all of the nice stuff that I have managed to get so far, though I'm hoping that I can keep expanding. While we're on the subject, how impossible would it be to find a scope meant for the Beryl's early POPC I rail? Between how low the production numbers were and how many of them were night vision, I'm not exactly optimistic about my chances. I have one of those early rails because of how goofy they are, though I think it would still be nice to have a scope to pair with it.
I have the plastic furniture and folding stock of an early Beryl rifle as well, so my ultimate goal would be to put all of this on one gun. I might also use that folding stock instead to convert a Mini Beryl into an SBR since I've got a set of the early plastic furniture for one of those as well. I would really love to find one of those black plastic 20(?) round Beryl magazines or some light or laser for a MAG pistol, but I doubt that very many of those were made either.
Obrazek

(sadly) not my stuff
Obrazek

krzychu22lr pisze:
9 sierpnia 2020, 00:12
---deleted to save space---
That sounds pretty accurate to how things are here. If I had to add anything, it's that .22 versions of existing guns or .22 conversion kits have become popular with the "tacticool" crowd because it lets them train with a certain gun while only spending a fraction on the ammo. That, and getting a M&P 15-22 or a .22lr AR-15 conversion is cost-competitive with getting a Ruger 10/22. I don't think that FB Radom would be able to sell their M22 here for $300.
Also, while $900 for a WASR is probably accurate enough, the BLM riots that have been going on here have really messed with gun and ammo prices. When people first started to panic about coronavirus, my local gun store only had slightly less in stock than usual. I visited them again yesterday and they've got half as many guns now as they usually do! Entire walls that would have been covered with guns are now empty even though there's barely any protesting in my area. Finding a WASR for less that $800 would have been easy enough six months ago, but everything right now is crazy. Thankfully, no one is panic buying oddball ammo like 7.65 Para or 7.5x55 Swiss, so my interest in funky guns has been paying off.

Sadly, depending on what type of Archer it is and how close to new condition it is, they seem to range anywhere from $1,800 to over $3,000. AK collectors care much more about the Archer now than they did in the past. An Archer has been something that I have wanted for quite a while, but I just find it hard to justify spending so much on AK when I could get something like a Pardini GT, MR73, or H&K SL7 for a similar price.
From the little that I've heard, the Mini Beryl will probably be priced the same as the Archer was when they were first imported. $1,200 for a brand new gun will be a much easier pill to swallow than $2,500 for a used one.


Also, what sort of reputation does WBP hold over in Poland? WBP rifles lately have been becoming more popular in the US and I hear mostly good things about them, but I see many AK collectors who are less interested in them because WBP doesn't have the type of military history that the Cugir and Zastava factories have.

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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#12 Post autor: waliza » 9 sierpnia 2020, 12:54

Czyli w skrócie Łucznik nie zawiódł. Po staremu- komunistyczna manufaktura w której jest jeden wielki burdel, nikt nic nie wie i wszyscy mają wszystko w dupie. Jakieś tam numery na broni, jakieś tam produkty na ten rynek , inne na tamten, zero dokumentacji lub tajna albo ją wcięło. - Jasiu w co pakujem te pistolety co do USA idą ? - A nie wiem, ,weź te pudełka co po gazowych zostały i pakuj i bedzie dobrze.
nie chcę mieć racji, szukam prawdy/ Baikal 27/ Weatherby PA08/ Hatsan Escort Magnum.

krzychu22lr
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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#13 Post autor: krzychu22lr » 9 sierpnia 2020, 23:07

CatKing pisze:
9 sierpnia 2020, 12:44
Regarding FB Radom USA, I wouldn't think that it would be a factory, more just some office that would exist to help streamline the importation and distribution of their stuff to America.
Yep, and honestly, I never quite understood where that kind of opinion (which I encountered quite often on the net) came from. Maybe from excited Ted Marshall - in YT vids guy seemed really happy (I also bet that his Marshall Arms was going to do all the work on imported guns).
CatKing pisze:
9 sierpnia 2020, 12:44
Going off of a court document from the 7N6 case with the ATF, it looks Dalvar USA imported one Onyks while Marshall imported three others. What makes this case even more stupid is that by the time they banned importation of 7N6 because it was "armor piercing handgun ammo", the ATF had already reclassified the Onyks as an SBR! It's ridiculous that the ATF was able to get away with this.
Wow, never heard of that outcome! Guess somebody at ATF was really, really persistent on getting rid of those pesky surplus!

As for the POPC-1 accessories - sadly none of the optics for it were ever produced (with exception for PCS-6 Gabro NV). While on designing/conceptual side our factories and/or R&D centres are pretty inventive, when it comes to actual contracts, military is very conservative. Heck, current MSBS/Grot was lying on the shelf for few years, before military finally bought it - and it is a rifle designed by military itself (Military Academy of Technology - WAT). Except from the old photos, I never seen any sign of those optics. I guess prototypes are still hidden, forgotten, somewhere in PCO, but I doubt if they are on sale. If they were - then I'd be the first to buy! :P

When it comes to flashlights, you might be in better situation then us here in Poland! ZM Łucznik old website described MAG flashlights as Sure-fire tactical lighting, and it does look quite similiar to Surefire 628. For what it's worth, here's a 1997 vintage Surefire weapon lights catalog, maybe it will be helpful.

20rd mags were all made by cutting down a 30-rounder. On that old photo you can see rivets keeping mag floor plate in place. Mini-Beryl was adopted in 2004, and at that time not only FB was making translucent mags, but someone decided that going with 20-rounders is not worth the squeeze.

By the way - have you ever heard about "Mini-Beryl US"? It's supposedly a designation for suppressed Mini-Beryl that ZM Łucznik (or Dalvar, or whomever) tried to market on US law enforcement market. There was a photo of this thing on the net, but now all that's left is only a small thumbnail.
CatKing pisze:
9 sierpnia 2020, 12:44
Also, what sort of reputation does WBP hold over in Poland? WBP rifles lately have been becoming more popular in the US and I hear mostly good things about them, but I see many AK collectors who are less interested in them because WBP doesn't have the type of military history that the Cugir and Zastava factories have.
The current manufacture guns are OK from what I hear. Never had a chance to shoot one extensively, some people have had problems (IIRC the most common issue was rusting bolt carrier/piston? but don't quote me on that - I don't really remember), but those were few and far between, and overall they work and don't seem to spontaneusly explode like PAC AK-like product.

I do have some sort of personal story with them however - they ran me off AK Files, threatening with legal action, for describing company history. Let's say their advertisement was a bit off on how old the company is, and for how long they've been making AKs by themselves (...and what it means to have military contracts :D ).

@Waliza:
Tak prawdę powiedziawszy to dobrze, że w ogóle były jakiekolwiek pudełka, broszury, wystawy targowe i tym podobne. Przecież do lat 90. całe to handlowo-marketingowe zaplecze obstawiały zrzeszenia/spółki Cenrex i Cenzin. W latach 90. znaleźli sobie lepsze źródło dochodu (sprzedaż broni wycofanej z magazynów wojskowych), a fabryki takie jak Łucznik czy HCP musiały same się zająć tym, za co panowie w Cenzinie wyciągali niemałe pieniądze z budżetu państwa.

Właściciel jakiejś małej manufaktury w Texasie może sobie po godzinach projektować i drukować opakowania dla swoich ARów. W zakładzie, który nie dość, że jest objęty specjalnymi przepisami MON, to jeszcze ma narzucony nadzór komisaryczny, każda kupiona kartka papieru musi przejść przez biurokratę, który stwierdzi jej zgodność z normami, oraz konieczność jej zakupu.

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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#14 Post autor: CatKing » 10 sierpnia 2020, 13:06

krzychu22lr pisze:
9 sierpnia 2020, 23:07
As for the POPC-1 accessories - sadly none of the optics for it were ever produced (with exception for PCS-6 Gabro NV). While on designing/conceptual side our factories and/or R&D centres are pretty inventive, when it comes to actual contracts, military is very conservative. Heck, current MSBS/Grot was lying on the shelf for few years, before military finally bought it - and it is a rifle designed by military itself (Military Academy of Technology - WAT). Except from the old photos, I never seen any sign of those optics. I guess prototypes are still hidden, forgotten, somewhere in PCO, but I doubt if they are on sale. If they were - then I'd be the first to buy! :P

When it comes to flashlights, you might be in better situation then us here in Poland! ZM Łucznik old website described MAG flashlights as Sure-fire tactical lighting, and it does look quite similiar to Surefire 628. For what it's worth, here's a 1997 vintage Surefire weapon lights catalog, maybe it will be helpful.

20rd mags were all made by cutting down a 30-rounder. On that old photo you can see rivets keeping mag floor plate in place. Mini-Beryl was adopted in 2004, and at that time not only FB was making translucent mags, but someone decided that going with 20-rounders is not worth the squeeze.
While I've never put a lot of thought into it, I think a big reason why Polish guns from this time period interest me as much as they do is due in part to what I at least perceive as a lot of talent from the engineering and design side that wasn't ever able to be fully appreciated. It seems to be a trend with the types of guns that draw my attention, namely the Benelli B76 and a lot of the handguns to come out of Spain in the 80s and 90s.

There's another amateur collector I'll chat with who focuses more on Berettas and old weapon lights and lasers from the 90s. Judging by how tough it is apparently to even just get something like an old Surefire 633 for a Beretta 92, getting one for such an obscure gun with essentially no presence in the US at the time sounds like an exercise in futility to me. For what it's worth, in both the ZM Lucznik brochure that I have and on an archive of Dalvar's website, there's pictures of a MAG 95 using a "LASER DEVICES" laser. They're neat little things and I've got one for my Daewoo DP51, but I don't think it'd be any easier to find one for the MAG than the Surefire would be. These are more of a pipe dream for me.

Obrazek

Speaking of pipe dreams, if any of those POPC-1 optics were to surface, I'd be in line right behind you to get one. I've seen a couple photos of a Beryl with the POPC-1 rail and an optic mounted in service, but haven't seen any pictures of any in private ownership either.

I was wondering if that was the case with the 20 rounders, but also somehow only realized yesterday that those rivets were there too. Probably wouldn't be too tough to make one myself if I really want a 20 rounder.
krzychu22lr pisze:
9 sierpnia 2020, 23:07
By the way - have you ever heard about "Mini-Beryl US"? It's supposedly a designation for suppressed Mini-Beryl that ZM Łucznik (or Dalvar, or whomever) tried to market on US law enforcement market. There was a photo of this thing on the net, but now all that's left is only a small thumbnail.
This is one of those things that I can't remember if I actually remember or if my brain is just tricking me into thinking I remember it. I did do some digging through the web archive of Dalvar's site a while ago and probably came across it then, but I know nothing about it. While trying to find an old post about the scopes for the POPC-1 optics on akfiles, I did find an old post by you there that references it! If I had heard of it before, it was probably through seeing some old post you made.
krzychu22lr pisze:
9 sierpnia 2020, 23:07
The current manufacture guns are OK from what I hear. Never had a chance to shoot one extensively, some people have had problems (IIRC the most common issue was rusting bolt carrier/piston? but don't quote me on that - I don't really remember), but those were few and far between, and overall they work and don't seem to spontaneusly explode like PAC AK-like product.

I do have some sort of personal story with them however - they ran me off AK Files, threatening with legal action, for describing company history. Let's say their advertisement was a bit off on how old the company is, and for how long they've been making AKs by themselves (...and what it means to have military contracts :D ).
If some parts being more prone to rusting is the main complaint about WBP guns, that puts it ahead of most AKs made in the US. That said, if they are being deceptive over what their company's history is, that'd make me a bit more hesitant to buy from them. Not too different from the sort of stupid stuff PAC does parading around the fact that their factory is in Radom too, meaning it's definitely the same as FB Radom and is imbued with their magical properties :|
With FB Radom looking like they're going to try selling guns to the US again, I'll probably just hold out for something from them instead of settling with a WBP. I just need to eventually get some homes for the POPC rails I bought.

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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#15 Post autor: krzychu22lr » 11 sierpnia 2020, 00:45

CatKing pisze:
10 sierpnia 2020, 13:06
For what it's worth, in both the ZM Lucznik brochure that I have and on an archive of Dalvar's website, there's pictures of a MAG 95 using a "LASER DEVICES" laser.
IIRC "Laser Devices" was the same company as Surefire, just without fancy name yet.

I don't think that Surefire ever made flashlight/mount dedicated to MAG, but I suppose Łucznik either used mount for different pistol (and just stamped MAG 95 on the side), or fabricated prototype mount themselves. Though MAG magazines were made by Mec-Gar (Italy), so who knows.

As for the suppressed Mini-Beryl - I don't remember mentioning it on Files, even in passing, but it's possible! :D I managed to find a bit better resolution photo, and it looks as if suppressor slides over the muzzle device, but is attached below it. Interestingly enough, Mini-Beryl with flashlight from your previous post, seems to have light mounted via interface on the bottom of muzzle device - possibly the same gun, and that interface was used for either light or suppressor? Again - who knows.
CatKing pisze:
10 sierpnia 2020, 13:06
If some parts being more prone to rusting is the main complaint about WBP guns, that puts it ahead of most AKs made in the US. That said, if they are being deceptive over what their company's history is, that'd make me a bit more hesitant to buy from them.
Don't get me wrong - it's not a bad product. If you're in a market for classic-looking 7.62 AK, but don't care for Cold War commie factory connection, WBP is probably the best choice. But yes, it seems that they kinda believed in their own hype - WBP started manufacturing complete AKs in-house only in 2016. So it's still relatively new product. Their previous (2011-2015) offering on Polish market was either military rifles converted from full-auto to semi-only, or guns made from demilled rifles and parts kits. WBP was really only assembling that guns, and all the parts were still Łucznik manufacture from decades ago.

BTW: I completely understand your interest in not exactly obscure guns - I'm sort of the same way. Especially when it comes to pistols - guns like MAG, Bernadelli P-18/P.One, Vektor. These ain't groundbreaking designs, but it's interesting to see how smaller companies creatively adapted ideas from big boys (Vektor/Denel wasn't that small, but you get the idea). That's probably why I'm interested in AKs so much - while they all seem identical, in detail you can see a lot of personal touches between various manufacturers.

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