TL; DR: at this moment no one can give you
100% sure answer, but naming connection between "Archer Arms Illinois" and "Archer Metal Works Radom Poland" (ZM Łucznik) is probably incidental.
Long answer: let's start from the end.
CatKing pisze: ↑5 sierpnia 2020, 14:05
Also while I'm here, is there any sort of pattern to the letter prefixes that Radom was using for its serial numbers? The order they're used in seems to be very random and I have a "SZKOLNY" marked P-64 from 1969 with a "S" prefix, but my eagle P-83 from 1994 also has a "S" prefix.
Yes, there was pattern/numbering convention, but it was different for every product, and even within one type of weapon, it may have been different depending on the customer. For example, AKs manufactured for Polish military had serial numbers composed of two letters and then five digits, where letters were coded for the year of manufacture. But AKs intended for export often had different serial numbers - for example one letter and three digits, or one letter and five digits.
In case of P-83, you can see all sorts of different numbering conventions. Military guns are often marked with two letters and five digits, but it seems like date code is different than what was used on AKs (for example P-83s with BTxxxxx serial numbers - BT was date code for 1969 AKMs). Most of the
commercial guns (either sold on US or, virtually non-existent, Polish market) also have this format of serial numbers. However, there were exceptions - Dalvar
eagle series like yours, or specialized variants (P-83c, P-83G, etc.).
Unfortunately, there's no data regarding serial numbers convention - all we know comes from analizing existing guns. After "ZM Łucznik" ceased to exist, their documents were divided between State Archive in Radom, and (confidential files) Central Military Archive in Warsaw (with exception to technical data packages for weapons, as those were either transferred to "FB Łucznik", or sold to whomever was willing to buy - eg. "Works 11"). From my understanding all the files regarding contracts/sales and production numbers are in confidential resource, since State Archive in Radom have no such documents.
Which brings us to other question:
CatKing pisze: ↑5 sierpnia 2020, 14:05
I'm guessing that at some point, ZM Łucznik was working on getting a branch opened up in the USA to help sell more stuff here. The name of the importer, "Archer Arms," sounds like it could be them. Along with that, they were also able to get their own unique markings and serial number range for the guns. The issue with this theory is not only that I've never heard of ZM Łucznik doing that, but there was already an importer at that time, Dalvar USA. While I do not think that Dalvar was the official importer for ZM Łucznik's guns, he still had a close enough relation with them that his import marks were added at the factory in Radom instead of during the importation process.
Special markings are not really that special - people seem to forget, but during 1990s ZM Łucznik was one of few places where you could engrave your gun, and I know of few old "fudds" who did just that. So if factory was ready to work on someone's single hunting rifle, it should be no surprise that wholesaler/importer would get it too on Łucznik's own product. And while Dalvar was probably closest thing to
official distributor of ZM Łucznik in US, it wasn't the only one. Few examples of full-auto guns were imported as dealer samples by at least one company. It wouldn't be surprising to learn that there was another US distributor of ZM Łucznik.
However I find it unlikely for ZM Łucznik to try and set up a sort of
factory shop in the US, simply because the factory was broke as f..k. And, as we say here,
to nie są tanie rzeczy - these things ain't cheap. While it may seem that in the 1990s ZM Łucznik was
expanding by entering civilian market (either in Europe or US), it was really grasping at straws. Military contracts were dwindling, exports to various Middle-Eastern and African countries also ended (some thanks to... German and US intelligence agencies). In 1990 Radom R&D Centre (OBR Radom which was a separate entity) was closed, and while some of it's assets were given to ZM Łucznik, factory lacked a lot of developing capabilities. So not only it would be virtually impossible for them to set up subsidiary in US (just like FB Łucznik Radom of USA failed in 2017), it wouldn't also stay under the radar for so long. Afterall, financial troubles of ZM Łucznik were a topic of few parliamentary debates in Poland, and creation of FB Łucznik was enacted by parliament too.
My wild-assed guess is that some Illinois entrepreneur decided to take a cut from Dalvar's pie, and since he liked "Archer" name, he used it for his operation. All while ZM Łucznik didn't mind - even though "Archer" was used by ZM Łucznik civilian products since at least 1920s (bikes, sewing machines, airguns - 1970s air gun exports to UK had "Archer" logo), at the time it wasn't registered/trademarked. Also notice that "Archer Arms" P-83 has name "Arrow", while factory ads say it is "Vanad" - transliteration of "Wanad" (vanadium) which was military code-name for P-83 development program. It is possible that "Archer Arms" owner's last name was "Archer", and that's why he stick to this theme - it's a crap shot, but when I googled "Archer Arms, Elk Grove, IL", I found an obituary of Mr Robert D. Archer, Elk Grove resident, who died in March at age of 87.
Unless Okruch's connection will dig something new up, the only
sure information is still confidential (if those files even have civilian sales data). Your best bet would be trying to check if someone, anywhere in US have any information about "Archer Arms" itself - I suppose it must have been FFL, so ATF
should have some info? But on the other hand it is no coincidence that
writing a letter to ATF became a meme, and if you have dogs, they would like to live a little longer! Nice collection BTW!
mkl1 pisze: ↑6 sierpnia 2020, 19:13
Hi
I heard only that some time ago Polish "Lucznik" would like to "egsist" in American market.
They decided prepare a special edition marked as a "ARCHER ARMS."
Pierwsze słyszę - jakieś źródła?
Z broni pod nazwą "Archer" eksportowano tylko Beryle (w latach 2012-2014, do USA, ale też Rosji i Włoch), a wcześniej wiatrówki w latach 70. Natomiast o "Archer Arms" nic nie wiem, i nie słyszałem, do czasu postu kolegi CatKinga. W latach 90. ZM Łucznik używał w anglojęzycznych materiałach reklamowych nazwy "Archer Metal Works" (Dalvar chwalił się głównie "11" i "Radom"), a obecna FB Łucznik Radom częściej używa po prostu "FB Radom", pomijając wszelkie łucznicze konotacje.
CatKing pisze: ↑7 sierpnia 2020, 15:26
While I do not know the reason why FB Radom never actually opened in the US, I think a big reason why is related to the people who were importing the Archer rifles being stupid.
If anyone was stupid, it was ATF. FB Łucznik Radom sent samples to ATF even before establishing "FB Radom of USA, Texas". Two 5.56 guns were virtually identical to 2012 Archers, and two guns were .22 cal Beryls M22. ATF rejected 5.56 guns, and Łucznik was left with .22s only (which have very limited interest in US, judging from comments on the Internet).
CatKing pisze: ↑7 sierpnia 2020, 15:26
I think about 1,000 of the "Archer' Beryls were imported.
750 to be precise. And initial contract with IO Inc. said that they'll import 1000 of full-size Archers, and 500 Mini-Archers in pistol form. Apparently IO bailed in the middle, thus Łucznik decided to work with Ted Marshall (the "FB Radom of USA, Texas").
CatKing pisze: ↑7 sierpnia 2020, 15:26
I believe that the importer did something stupid with importing the Archer rifles that technically broke some import law, so no more were able to come in once that happened.
Nope, since IO (while a shitty company) was doing everything to be within the law (thus the idiotic muzzle device on first series of Archers), and "FB Radom of USA" never imported a thing.
You may be thinking of Ted Marshall himself, who via his own Marshall Arms imported a real-deal (full-auto, SBR) Onyks (he has few of the 1990s ZM Łucznik dealer samples too), which lead to ATF banning 7N6, due to
commercial availability of a pistol
Fabryka Bronie Radom, Model Onyks 89S. Needless to say - last Onyks was manufactured 5 years before Fabryka Broni "Łucznik" Radom was established, and FB doesn't have any 5.45 gun in portfolio (only prototype Beryl M545, which was trialed in Vietnam). So while Ted may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, his 7N6 mess has nothing to "Radom of USA" imports (which were planned to be 5.56 and .22LR guns).
BTW:
the American offensive was plan of previous FB Łucznik director, and they were willing to sacrifice a lot for that. Current director is apparently a little less hot-headed, and focuses a bit more on local civilian market. But this
slower approach seems to be working better - first they were just exporting parts, and now apparently ATF accepted 5.56 Mini-Beryl pistol too.
asasello pisze: ↑7 sierpnia 2020, 19:37
Trudno mi powiedzieć co się stało z dokumentacją fabryki po jej bankructwie.Dokumentacje techniczną (przynajmniej w części) ma Works 11.Ale ta dotyczącą produkcji to diabli wiedzą.
Napisałem po angielsku dla kolegi-imperialisty, ale napiszę też po polsku, żebyś nie walczył z translatorem: archiwa "Łucznika" są w Archiwum Państwowym w Radomiu, i w Centralnym Archiwum Wojskowym (zasób tajny - przynajmniej rok temu). Miałem się w tym roku do Radomia wybrać, ale koronawirus... W każdym razie, z opisu akt wynika, że nie ma tam informacji dt. produkcji - czyli są w CAW (jeśli w ogóle).
Co do dokumentacji technicznej, ta trafiła w różne ręce, ale jestem niemal prawie pewien, że ta dotycząca P-83 została w FB Łucznik (FB nadal remontuje Wanady dla wojska). Works11 miał jedną z trzech wersji dokumentacji do MAG-a, i jedną z cholera-wie-ilu wersji dokumentacji do AK(M). Inna wersja dokumentacji techniczej do AKM dostała się w ręce Pioneer Arms, który to PAC sprzedał ją potem do IO Inc (amerykańskiego dystrybutora PAC, a w latach 2012-2014 także dystrybutora FB Łucznik). IO Inc sam produkował AKM-y na Florydzie, rzekomo zgodne z tą dokumentacją, które dosłownie rozpadały się w oczach (tak jak te PAC). Potem okazało się, że części przenoszące obciążenia (obsady luf, zamki, suwadła) są w tej broni wykonywane w zupełnie innym reżimie technologicznym niż w AKM od Łucznika (czy IżMaszu).
waliza pisze: ↑7 sierpnia 2020, 22:10
WANAD to byla wersja na rynek cywilny
Jeśli chcemy być tacy pedantyczni, to "Wanad" to był kryptonim programu badawczo-rozwojowego nowego pistoletu nadany przez MON, "P-83" to oznaczenie zakładowe OBR Radom i ZM Łucznik, a ostateczne oznaczenie wojskowe to "9mm pistolet wojskowy wzór 1983". W latach 90. Łucznik używał w materiałach reklamowych nazwy "P-83 Wanad", ale słowo "Wanad" jest jak najbardziej prawidłowe w stosunku do wersji wojskowej - wszak z samego wojska ono pochodzi.
Co do wersji z szerszymi nacięciami - należała do rzadkości, większość komercyjnych Wanadów (czy to na rynek polski, czy amerykański) miała standardowe nacięcia (jak choćby dwa cywilne P-83 kolegi CatKinga).