Question about unusual P-83 from USA

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CatKing
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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#16 Post autor: CatKing » 11 sierpnia 2020, 15:14

krzychu22lr pisze:
11 sierpnia 2020, 00:45
As for the suppressed Mini-Beryl - I don't remember mentioning it on Files, even in passing, but it's possible! :D I managed to find a bit better resolution photo, and it looks as if suppressor slides over the muzzle device, but is attached below it. Interestingly enough, Mini-Beryl with flashlight from your previous post, seems to have light mounted via interface on the bottom of muzzle device - possibly the same gun, and that interface was used for either light or suppressor? Again - who knows.
I noticed that too with the suppressor and light mount, so I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. I know it isn't as practical, but I do kind of wish that I could get a Mini Beryl with a rear sight like the one you linked instead of the ugly railed one that we will be getting here in the US.

Was mentioned briefly in this post. Maybe it's not you, but I'm just assuming it is
https://www.akfiles.com/forums/threads/ ... st-4238116
krzychu22lr pisze:
11 sierpnia 2020, 00:45
Don't get me wrong - it's not a bad product. If you're in a market for classic-looking 7.62 AK, but don't care for Cold War commie factory connection, WBP is probably the best choice. But yes, it seems that they kinda believed in their own hype - WBP started manufacturing complete AKs in-house only in 2016. So it's still relatively new product. Their previous (2011-2015) offering on Polish market was either military rifles converted from full-auto to semi-only, or guns made from demilled rifles and parts kits. WBP was really only assembling that guns, and all the parts were still Łucznik manufacture from decades ago.

BTW: I completely understand your interest in not exactly obscure guns - I'm sort of the same way. Especially when it comes to pistols - guns like MAG, Bernadelli P-18/P.One, Vektor. These ain't groundbreaking designs, but it's interesting to see how smaller companies creatively adapted ideas from big boys (Vektor/Denel wasn't that small, but you get the idea). That's probably why I'm interested in AKs so much - while they all seem identical, in detail you can see a lot of personal touches between various manufacturers.
I was really tempted for a while to get a WBP, but it's the prospect of FB Radom imports that ultimately killed that ambition.

Funnily enough, when it comes to collecting those sorts of underappreciated guns, it's mostly pistols for me too (as shown by me having 5 Polish handguns and 0 Polish rifles). I of course like rifles as well, though my interests there are just less well-defined. AKs certainly do interest me more than most other rifles on the market and I think a lot of that appeal comes both from what you've mentioned and also from all the different furniture and gadgets that were made for them. They're kind of like expensive Barbie dolls that go bang if you think about it like that too much :D

krzychu22lr
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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#17 Post autor: krzychu22lr » 12 sierpnia 2020, 23:10

Oh yes, that's me. :P

BTW: the sight on early Mini was an optic rail too - same interface as on POPC, just none of that built-in adjustments retardation. Those first type Minis were not adopted, and only very short pre-production series was made - but it's virtually identical to final iteration of Onyks rear sight/rail, it only lacks POPC notches. I know there are some Onyks parts kits floating around in US, so if you need "clone correct" early Mini so much... :D

It's a bit ironic however, that Onyks never left pre-production stage, yet there's more of them floating around than pre-production Minis! Though it's not really surprising, since Beryl is "product improved" Tantal, or final stage of the same development.

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CatKing
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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#18 Post autor: CatKing » 14 sierpnia 2020, 09:14

krzychu22lr pisze:
12 sierpnia 2020, 23:10
Oh yes, that's me. :P

BTW: the sight on early Mini was an optic rail too - same interface as on POPC, just none of that built-in adjustments retardation. Those first type Minis were not adopted, and only very short pre-production series was made - but it's virtually identical to final iteration of Onyks rear sight/rail, it only lacks POPC notches. I know there are some Onyks parts kits floating around in US, so if you need "clone correct" early Mini so much... :D

It's a bit ironic however, that Onyks never left pre-production stage, yet there's more of them floating around than pre-production Minis! Though it's not really surprising, since Beryl is "product improved" Tantal, or final stage of the same development.
Didn't realize production was so limited on the early Mini Beryl, though it'd definitely help explain why there's not many pictures of them floating around either. If the rail ends up really bugging me, aside from just hoping I can find an Onyks kit, I think just slapping on an Eotech 512 or 552 could also work.

Also, after thinking about it forever and never doing it, I reached out to Ian from Forgotten Weapons earlier this week. He expressed interest in covering a few of my guns, my little collection of Polish handguns being some of them. They won't be the first thing I send him (that'll probably be just a Felk TF919), but I'll probably get them sent his way if the Felk goes well. Only English youtube video right now I've found on the MAG pistols is from 2012 and it leaves some room for improvement.

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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#19 Post autor: bartos061 » 14 sierpnia 2020, 19:19

OK lets's start :wink:
I'm pretty happy with all of the nice stuff that I have managed to get so far, though I'm hoping that I can keep expanding. While we're on the subject, how impossible would it be to find a scope meant for the Beryl's early POPC I rail? Between how low the production numbers were and how many of them were night vision, I'm not exactly optimistic about my chances. I have one of those early rails because of how goofy they are, though I think it would still be nice to have a scope to pair with it.

Like Krzychu said - the only model which was widely use - was PCS-6 night vision scope. What is funny - as about the optic it was better than its successor PCS-5M. They use white phosphorus in it, which technology is very trendy nowadays. But the main problem with it - were those shitty rails. It was a horror to zero it. As I know most of them in Polish Army are replaced by PCS-5M. So there is a chance that some of them going to be sell.

"Laser Devices" was the same company as Surefire, just without fancy name yet.
NO - Laser Devices is totally different company than Surefire. In fact SF change the name in about year 2000. Previous name of SF was "Laser Products Corporation". Nowadays - name of the "Laser Devices" company is a "Steiner Optic"!

CatKing
For MAG-95/98 You can use laser module from Laser Devices. They made universal mount one. I can't remember which exactly model. I will find it and I will give You to know.
Here is a picture of my MAG with such a laser:
Obrazek
In the picture You pasted - there is older variation but it have also an universal mount.
As about flashlight - all, like was mentioned were modified by Łucznik OBR.
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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#20 Post autor: bartos061 » 14 sierpnia 2020, 20:04

One more thing:
This picture was take in early 2000 . We try to use some shitty commercial sights on those early generation rails.
Those slings were hand made :wink:

Obrazek
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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#21 Post autor: krzychu22lr » 15 sierpnia 2020, 13:29

Hey, Bartos is here! :)
bartos061 pisze:
14 sierpnia 2020, 19:19
NO - Laser Devices is totally different company than Surefire. In fact SF change the name in about year 2000. Previous name of SF was "Laser Products Corporation". Nowadays - name of the "Laser Devices" company is a "Steiner Optic"!
I stand corrected! Just like CatKing, I'm not really knowledgeable in weapon lights and lasers. I know that Steiner is making DBAL lasers for US armed forces, and I wondered how the hell German-Italian company managed to pull it off. Now I see that answer is simple: they just bought out original US manufacturer! :oops:
CatKing pisze:
14 sierpnia 2020, 09:14
Felk TF919
Okay, you won! :D I never heard about this thing, and it's hard to even find some information about it. Some people say it was made in Spain, some say it was made in Australia, there are pictures out there, but of two different handguns (one is compact, other one is full-size with Beretta-like cut-out in the slide). Obscure is an understatement!

As for the MAG - I don't really know if there are any good sources in English about this pistol, for Mr McCollum to use. In Polish there's naturally a great article by Leszek Erenfeicht - though it was written in 2003, so it doesn't have anything on further developments (MAG-08, Ryszard Tobys' custom MAGs, PR-15/Vis 100). I know that on Ian's website there are few Erenfeicht's articles translated, so Ian shouldn't have problems with finding good info (almost) straight from the horse's mouth. If you're interested, there's a scan of this article on the net, but it's not OCRed, sadly.

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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#22 Post autor: CatKing » 17 sierpnia 2020, 11:27

I might not reply to everything that was posted, but I am grateful for all that you've been able to send my way. It's answered a lot of what I have been wondering about and shown me some things that I wasn't aware of at all in the first place.

bartos061 pisze:
14 sierpnia 2020, 19:19
For MAG-95/98 You can use laser module from Laser Devices. They made universal mount one. I can't remember which exactly model. I will find it and I will give You to know.
Here is a picture of my MAG with such a laser:
---
In the picture You pasted - there is older variation but it have also an universal mount.
As about flashlight - all, like was mentioned were modified by Łucznik OBR.
I wasn't aware of those universal mounts, but they seem interesting. If you can find out what model number that mount is, I would be happy to hear what it is.

I suppose the answer on the dedicated flashlight and laser mounts for the MAG 95 isn't very surprising, but it is still nice to have my curiosity sated on the matter.

One more thing:
This picture was take in early 2000 . We try to use some shitty commercial sights on those early generation rails.
Those slings were hand made :wink:
---
Interesting, haven't seen anything like that before. I guess that there's nothing stopping me from doing the same once I get a rifle to put my rail on.

krzychu22lr pisze:
15 sierpnia 2020, 13:29
As for the MAG - I don't really know if there are any good sources in English about this pistol, for Mr McCollum to use. In Polish there's naturally a great article by Leszek Erenfeicht - though it was written in 2003, so it doesn't have anything on further developments (MAG-08, Ryszard Tobys' custom MAGs, PR-15/Vis 100). I know that on Ian's website there are few Erenfeicht's articles translated, so Ian shouldn't have problems with finding good info (almost) straight from the horse's mouth. If you're interested, there's a scan of this article on the net, but it's not OCRed, sadly.
While I would of course like to have some viable way to read the article, the link itself is still really nice. Especially with those CAD model views, a lot of the pictures in there are ones that I have never seen before but have been wanting to find something like. When I send over my Polish guns to Ian, I'll try to remember to send him that .pdf as well just in case. Thanks for getting this to me!

Also, with the MAG 08, were there any other changes made beside the accessory rail? I assume that there were a few small tweaks that I'm missing, just like how the MAG 98 had a few minor changes from the MAG 95 other than just using an aluminum frame.
Okay, you won! :D I never heard about this thing, and it's hard to even find some information about it. Some people say it was made in Spain, some say it was made in Australia, there are pictures out there, but of two different handguns (one is compact, other one is full-size with Beretta-like cut-out in the slide). Obscure is an understatement!
Yeah, they made both a compact and full size, mine being a full size. In my opinion, the full size one is much more unique and interesting, so that's thankfully the one I have and will be sending in. As interesting as they are, they're not very well made, so probably is best that they have stayed obscure. Luckily for us, there's already a video that briefly covers the compact some (starting at about 4:17 in). As a bonus and since this is a Polish forum, they've got a Tarn in the same video as well right before the Felk.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXLm-sOFd1U

My understanding is that Felk contracted out the manufacture of the first batch of full size guns to either Star or Llama in Spain (I've seen conflicting claims on which, but my hunch is it's Llama), but eventually started making the guns on their own in Australia. Hopefully, this will be one of the things that Ian will be able to clear up for us. While the manual explains a lot of the technical aspects of the gun, all that I know about its history is what I can find on google. My gun appears to be 100% made in Spain (has Spanish proof marks on the frame, slide, and barrel), though all of the other full size Felks that I've seen are also marked as made in Spain.

It won't be something Ian covers since he already has a recent video on the B76, but the only gun I have that's comparable in obscurity is my Benelli MP3 (not MP3S). On one hand, I seem to be the only English language source to really say anything at all about it, though on the other, it's merely a variant of a much less obscure gun. Essentially, it's a Benelli B82 with the finish and the SAO trigger of an MP3S. I am very fond of the MP3 for many reasons, so I like to spread the word of its existence where I can.

Obrazek

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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#23 Post autor: bartos061 » 18 sierpnia 2020, 16:50

krzychu22lr
There was third author of this article! They put an explanation a month later in the next issue - that was a simple mistake. I'm writing this because He is/was a member of this forum :wink:
He also write another article in our other gun magazine "Bron i Amunicja" no 01/2006.
There was My little input in those articles and there was a pic of my MAG. Today this kind of light is a little bit bizarre :mrgreen:
Obrazek


CatKing You have to wait one week for the laser model number - I'm out of home now. I will check it !
Interesting, haven't seen anything like that before. I guess that there's nothing stopping me from doing the same once I get a rifle to put my rail on.

I think that there was only one unit back then, where we were allowed to do such a things. As I know another try like those were around first rotation in Iraq by soldiers form our 1st Special Forces Regiment (1PSK). Than there were, finally official - first gen picatinny/weaver type rails and Eotech sights.
Also, with the MAG 08, were there any other changes made beside the accessory rail? I assume that there were a few small tweaks that I'm missing, just like how the MAG 98 had a few minor changes from the MAG 95 other than just using an aluminum frame.
As I remember - MAG08 accepted Mec-Gar 17th rounds magazines. But this pistol was only prototype/display unit.

Ian and Leszek (author of the article) are know each other well, so He can sent him any question regarding MAG :wink:
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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#24 Post autor: asasello » 18 sierpnia 2020, 20:12

CatKing mógłbyś nam pokazać nam więcej zdjęć Felka?
https://wspieramrozwoj.pl
Si vis pacem -przebuduj piramidę na ziggurat.

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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#25 Post autor: CatKing » 19 sierpnia 2020, 12:40

bartos061 pisze:
18 sierpnia 2020, 16:50
There was My little input in those articles and there was a pic of my MAG. Today this kind of light is a little bit bizarre :mrgreen:
---
Looks like that arrangement might become a bit of an issue once you need to swap magazines :mrgreen:
CatKing You have to wait one week for the laser model number - I'm out of home now. I will check it !
Not a problem. I actually just got back home which is why this response was a little slower than usual.

asasello pisze:
18 sierpnia 2020, 20:12
CatKing mógłbyś nam pokazać nam więcej zdjęć Felka?
I only have my cell phone for a camera, so the picture quality won't be the best.
https://imgur.com/a/QdNrIaj

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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#26 Post autor: krzychu22lr » 19 sierpnia 2020, 19:09

CatKing pisze:
17 sierpnia 2020, 11:27
Also, with the MAG 08, were there any other changes made beside the accessory rail?
I don't think so. It was really a weird project - Works11* heard about possible pistol contract in Middle-East, and since they had left-over parts and documentation of MAG, they contacted FB Łucznik and offered them a co-operation (Works11 had no manufacturing abilities). Two pistols were made from old MAG 98 parts and newly-made frames with Picatinny rail... and it ended on that. I don't even know who was the supposed buyer, and which company got to keep the guns.

*Works11 is company established in around 2006 IIRC, by Mr Michał Lubiński, who was FB Łucznik competetive shooter in early 2000s. Since competetive shooting was almost non-existent at the time in Poland (with exception of Olympic sports), FB pulled out of it, and Mr Lubiński established his own arms-dealing company, also buying up lots of old ZM Łucznik stuff from ZM liquidator. Later Works11 was known from civi-legal semi-auto AKs build from new old stock ZMŁ parts, and in 2009 (trying to deter competition) they wrote a letter to Polish sort-of-ATF. Naturally, it ended in a giant clusterf*ck, and for two years it wasn't possible to legally acquire a semi-automatic center-fire rifle in Poland.

Felk - oh my God! Funny thing - I've seen that Tarn vid before (I think it was linked even on this forum), I remember 9mm Dreyse too, but apparently compact Felk is so similiar to any other CCW plastic pistol, that I completely forgot about it. Now full-size version - combination of Beretta cut and striker is rather memorable. It looks like a gun from "realistic" sci-fi movie/video-game, where propmaster wants to make something original, yet practical.
bartos061 pisze:
18 sierpnia 2020, 16:50
krzychu22lr
There was third author of this article! They put an explanation a month later in the next issue - that was a simple mistake. I'm writing this because He is/was a member of this forum
Wydaje mi się, że domyślam się o kogo chodzi, ale jak możesz to napisz, kto był autorem (może być na PW). W 2006 jeszcze byłem za młody, żeby się takimi rzeczami interesować, artykuły z tamtych lat znam więc głównie z takich kserokopii (kilka Strzałów znalazłem też w bibliotece, ale akurat nie tego z MAG-iem).

Swoją drogą a'propos taktycznego oświetlenia pod magazynkiem - ja wiem, że innych wtedy nie było, ale znane są jakieś przypadki rzeczywistego użycia takiej konfiguracji? Twoim zdaniem miało to w ogóle sens? Ja jestem laikiem, ale mam wrażenie, że to trochę taki gadżet - zarówno w użytku wojskowym, policyjnym, czy cywilnym, już lepsza chyba by była technika z pistoletem w jednej ręce i latarką w drugiej - przynajmniej nie jest się ograniczonym do jednego magazynka (sorry za off-top!).

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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#27 Post autor: CatKing » 20 sierpnia 2020, 09:46

krzychu22lr pisze:
19 sierpnia 2020, 19:09
I don't think so. It was really a weird project - Works11* heard about possible pistol contract in Middle-East, and since they had left-over parts and documentation of MAG, they contacted FB Łucznik and offered them a co-operation (Works11 had no manufacturing abilities). Two pistols were made from old MAG 98 parts and newly-made frames with Picatinny rail... and it ended on that. I don't even know who was the supposed buyer, and which company got to keep the guns.
I suppose that would help explain why the changes seem so limited for it being a "new" gun.
*Works11 is company established in around 2006 IIRC, by Mr Michał Lubiński, who was FB Łucznik competetive shooter in early 2000s. Since competetive shooting was almost non-existent at the time in Poland (with exception of Olympic sports), FB pulled out of it, and Mr Lubiński established his own arms-dealing company, also buying up lots of old ZM Łucznik stuff from ZM liquidator. Later Works11 was known from civi-legal semi-auto AKs build from new old stock ZMŁ parts, and in 2009 (trying to deter competition) they wrote a letter to Polish sort-of-ATF. Naturally, it ended in a giant clusterf*ck, and for two years it wasn't possible to legally acquire a semi-automatic center-fire rifle in Poland.
Seems like writing letters to those enforcing gun regulation tends to end poorly, regardless of which country you're in. I never knew of this Works11 either, though I suppose it sounds like all of the stuff they did was the sort that I wouldn't be noticing over here in the US either.
Felk - oh my God! Funny thing - I've seen that Tarn vid before (I think it was linked even on this forum), I remember 9mm Dreyse too, but apparently compact Felk is so similiar to any other CCW plastic pistol, that I completely forgot about it. Now full-size version - combination of Beretta cut and striker is rather memorable. It looks like a gun from "realistic" sci-fi movie/video-game, where propmaster wants to make something original, yet practical.
Yeah, other than the weird name and its Australian heritage, the compact doesn't seem very special to me. The full size version though has something to it that just makes it stand out. Of all the weird and interesting guns I own, the Felk seems to catch people's eyes the most. I got it mostly because it was a weird and whacky oddity that I hadn't seen before and the price as alright, but I didn't truly appreciate how weird it was until I was able to have it in my hands.

Also, that training school P-64 that I mentioned getting earlier apparently only just now got put in the mail yesterday afternoon even though I paid for almost a month ago. Not sure why it took that long, but it's finally actually on its way now.

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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#28 Post autor: bartos061 » 20 sierpnia 2020, 17:42

Wydaje mi się, że domyślam się o kogo chodzi, ale jak możesz to napisz, kto był autorem (może być na PW). W 2006 jeszcze byłem za młody, żeby się takimi rzeczami interesować, artykuły z tamtych lat znam więc głównie z takich kserokopii (kilka Strzałów znalazłem też w bibliotece, ale akurat nie tego z MAG-iem).
Michał Sitarski. Na strzeleckiej królik

Swoją drogą a'propos taktycznego oświetlenia pod magazynkiem - ja wiem, że innych wtedy nie było, ale znane są jakieś przypadki rzeczywistego użycia takiej konfiguracji? Twoim zdaniem miało to w ogóle sens? Ja jestem laikiem, ale mam wrażenie, że to trochę taki gadżet - zarówno w użytku wojskowym, policyjnym, czy cywilnym, już lepsza chyba by była technika z pistoletem w jednej ręce i latarką w drugiej - przynajmniej nie jest się ograniczonym do jednego magazynka (sorry za off-top!)
Nie mam teraz innej możliwości pisania niż na telefonie, czego nienawidzę. Wklejam więc mój stary komentarz w odpowiedzi na "podśmiechujki" po opublikowaniu zdjęcia mojego maga.
Najpierw fota mojego klocka 2 generacji z takim fabrycznym rozwiązaniem
Obrazek

Ok okazuje sie, że na telefonie nie mogę skopiować tekstu z FB. Albo nie umiem. Wklejam więc link:
https://m.facebook.com/kolekcja061/phot ... &source=54
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Re: Question about unusual P-83 from USA

#29 Post autor: krzychu22lr » 27 sierpnia 2020, 14:33

CatKing pisze:
20 sierpnia 2020, 09:46
Seems like writing letters to those enforcing gun regulation tends to end poorly, regardless of which country you're in.
At least no dogs were harmed! As for Works11 - they are now exclusively in the market of military weapons and equipment, things like Dillon Aero M134D and so on.

@Bartos:
tak, znam tego posta, ale nie odpowiada on na moje pytanie: jak miało wyglądać zastosowanie takiego oświetlenia w praktyce, i czy znamy jakieś przypadki użycia jego?

Swoją drogą - nie nazwałbym podśmiechujkami krytyki tego rozwiązania, raczej zdrowym rozsądkiem. Nawet wśród uzbrojonych profesjonalistów zdarzają się przypadki oddawania ogromnej liczby strzałów w stresie (przykład 1. i 2.) - do tego stopnia, że niektórzy nadają temu zjawisku nazwę. Z punktu widzenia długotrwałości sytuacji użycia broni rozwiązanie z latarką pod magazynkiem, nawet jeśli wygodniejsze, ma dosyć oczywiste ograniczenia.

Chyba, że umyka mi coś czego nie ma na zdjęciu, np. szybkie mocowanie "QD" - stąd też moje pytanie o praktykę użycia.

ODPOWIEDZ